Itās a savagely bright afternoon in early November and I am hungover, but not as hungover as Tim Kinsella. The Chicago native played the last-but-one of his UK tour dates with seminal Midwestern emo outfit Capān Jazz the night before, which ā in traditional fashion ā entailed a lot of Tim falling about topless, playing an endless game of fetch with the audience and his tambourine, and screaming until he threw up. The shows were among the first Capān Jazz played since their brief reunion in 2010, which, in turn, were the bandās first shows since they broke up in 1995. Weāre not here, drying out in a Hackney pub in the middle of the day, to talk about Capān Jazz. But their influence canāt be overstated. They are smart without being pretentious, earnest without being histrionic ā often undercutting their own significance by rarely taking themselves very seriously (they were all in their mid-teens when the band formed, after all). And, at the centre of all this playful chaos, is Tim Kinsella, who we are here to talk about.
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As Jessica Hopper noted for Spin, the legendary and short-lived nature of the band ācreated a kind of mythology around Kinsella as a true artist, especially seeing as his peers and acolytes went on to mainstream and even top 40 success, while he remained ā and remains ā underground.ā Beyond Capān Jazz, Tim has been involved in more projects than he has fingers to count them on. Like his brother Mike Kinsella (Owen, Owls, American Football) and cousin Nate (Birthmark, American Football, Joan of Arc), Tim is a restless creative polymath whose narrative voice threads everything he touches together. From Joan of Arc to Owls to Make Believe to releases under his own name and collaborations with artists like Angel Olsen, Timās writing is a unique articulation of the particular inner struggles of existence. Sad, sweet, literary, and often all three.Tim Kinsella is extremely good at what he does, which happens to be an intimidating amount of music, helping to run a publishing house called Featherproof, writing novels and teaching creative writing to college students. The only way I would realistically end up sat across a candle-lit table from someone this impressive, asking them questions about their childhood, is if it was staged in the name of journalism. So here we are. In the pub. Tim orders a diet coke, and I order a pint because Iām a legend. And we had a nice long conversation about everything from relationships to his second novel Let Go On And On And On ā which takes inspiration from the life of actor Laurie Bird, who appeared in three films in the 70s and then died of an overdose aged 26 ā to therapy to his, uh, penis.
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Noisey: Hi Tim, you look fragile.
Tim Kinsella: Man, I drank way too much last night.Oh dear. Have the shows been good though?
Yeah, they were great. Glad to be done with themā¦ But they were definitely fun. So this is like a blind date? I guess every interview is like a blind date, sort of. Not to give you the impression that if I ever went on a blind date I would just talk about my bands.Yeah, we basically started with the concept of an interview and worked backwards to its fundamental principle of getting to know someone.
That sounds nice. How can I really fuck this up that you would be like āOh, this asshole! This is horrible!ā Am I going to be mocked? Is that a thing? Publicly ridiculed?Nah weāre here because I already think youāre cool, so itās very much unlike a date in that respect. But letās start here: do you remember the first date you ever went on?
I went to Catholic grade school and we had these roller skating parties, like dances, that started in 7th or 8th grade, which is around the same time boys started getting erections so it was sort of awkwardlyā¦ā¦Everyone roller skating with a boner?
All I remember is you would ask someone to go to the roller skating party with you, and you would hold hands while you roller skated in a circle, and your hands would get so sweaty.
Tim Kinsella: Man, I drank way too much last night.Oh dear. Have the shows been good though?
Yeah, they were great. Glad to be done with themā¦ But they were definitely fun. So this is like a blind date? I guess every interview is like a blind date, sort of. Not to give you the impression that if I ever went on a blind date I would just talk about my bands.Yeah, we basically started with the concept of an interview and worked backwards to its fundamental principle of getting to know someone.
That sounds nice. How can I really fuck this up that you would be like āOh, this asshole! This is horrible!ā Am I going to be mocked? Is that a thing? Publicly ridiculed?Nah weāre here because I already think youāre cool, so itās very much unlike a date in that respect. But letās start here: do you remember the first date you ever went on?
I went to Catholic grade school and we had these roller skating parties, like dances, that started in 7th or 8th grade, which is around the same time boys started getting erections so it was sort of awkwardlyā¦ā¦Everyone roller skating with a boner?
All I remember is you would ask someone to go to the roller skating party with you, and you would hold hands while you roller skated in a circle, and your hands would get so sweaty.
That doesnāt sound so bad. If you were going to take someone on a date now, what would you do if you were trying to impress them?
Everyone likes sushi, right? Last weekend was the ten-year anniversary of my divorce, talk about a way to start feeling old, so Iām not super interested in going on dates. The woman Iām dating now, I really like her band a lot. There used to be a little studio room in my house and it just sort of expanded to take over the whole living room, so we just stay at home and DJ for each other and play music together.
Everyone likes sushi, right? Last weekend was the ten-year anniversary of my divorce, talk about a way to start feeling old, so Iām not super interested in going on dates. The woman Iām dating now, I really like her band a lot. There used to be a little studio room in my house and it just sort of expanded to take over the whole living room, so we just stay at home and DJ for each other and play music together.
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Well, that sounds adorable. Whatās the nicest thing anyoneās ever done for you?
I have a really charmed life. I feel like Iāve got people doing nice things for me every day. I had a friend loan me some money so I could invest in this small business, this publishing company that I run. That was incredibly nice of him.Whatās the nicest thing youāve ever done for someone else?
There was this homeless guy whose birth certificate I tracked down once. He used to hang out outside this bar [in Chicago] that Iād worked at forever. Iād talk to him everyday and somehow we figured out that he was born the same day as my mum. Not just the same date, but the same year. He was a really nice guy. So I tracked down the hospital in Mississippi that he was born in and got them to send me his birth certificate so he could get an ID so he could get a job. That felt like a kind of nice thing? But I donāt think anything ever came of it. I donāt think it made a difference. That was the nicest thing I ever attempted to do, anyway.
I have a really charmed life. I feel like Iāve got people doing nice things for me every day. I had a friend loan me some money so I could invest in this small business, this publishing company that I run. That was incredibly nice of him.Whatās the nicest thing youāve ever done for someone else?
There was this homeless guy whose birth certificate I tracked down once. He used to hang out outside this bar [in Chicago] that Iād worked at forever. Iād talk to him everyday and somehow we figured out that he was born the same day as my mum. Not just the same date, but the same year. He was a really nice guy. So I tracked down the hospital in Mississippi that he was born in and got them to send me his birth certificate so he could get an ID so he could get a job. That felt like a kind of nice thing? But I donāt think anything ever came of it. I donāt think it made a difference. That was the nicest thing I ever attempted to do, anyway.
Do you live around there still?
Yeah, Iāve lived in the same neighbourhood for about 22 years now.What do you like about it?
I know where everything is.Canāt argue with that. Speaking of arguing, though ā what was your relationship with Mike like growing up?
We fought a lot as kids. It wasnāt like we discovered playing music together, either. I was playing with Sam and Vic, and then I was running late one day to practice and I got home and they were playing with Mike. And I was like āno way!ā and they were like āyeah, heās inā. And then we fought even more. When Capān Jazz really existed as a band, a couple of us had real drug problems, which made it impossible. But then also me and Mike ā who didnāt have drug problems ā just fought non-stop. So itās crazy that anything ever got done. Iāve never really thought about that, but yeah. We fought a lot, basically until we stopped playing music together, and then we got along really well for a few years. Then we made a second Owls record and immediately started fighting all the time again.
Yeah, Iāve lived in the same neighbourhood for about 22 years now.What do you like about it?
I know where everything is.Canāt argue with that. Speaking of arguing, though ā what was your relationship with Mike like growing up?
We fought a lot as kids. It wasnāt like we discovered playing music together, either. I was playing with Sam and Vic, and then I was running late one day to practice and I got home and they were playing with Mike. And I was like āno way!ā and they were like āyeah, heās inā. And then we fought even more. When Capān Jazz really existed as a band, a couple of us had real drug problems, which made it impossible. But then also me and Mike ā who didnāt have drug problems ā just fought non-stop. So itās crazy that anything ever got done. Iāve never really thought about that, but yeah. We fought a lot, basically until we stopped playing music together, and then we got along really well for a few years. Then we made a second Owls record and immediately started fighting all the time again.
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Over creative control?
Yeah, weāre very different. I just really enjoy playing music with people, itās one of my favourite things to do, and Mike really hates playing music with people. Itās little stuff, like weāll say, āletās try that again and see what it sounds like slowerā and Mike will be like, āno, I already know I donāt like itā. Whereas any other band context Iāve ever been in would be like āyeah, letās play it slower, letās play it EVEN slower, letās play it again faster, letās play it again in three, letās try this letās try thatā and Mike just sighs, like, āno, I wanna go.ā I think maybe thereās a little competitiveness, but now that American Football is way more successful than any of my bands ever will be, that competitiveness isnāt an issue anymore. We get along better than ever now that thereās just a clear winner, and itās not me.
Yeah, weāre very different. I just really enjoy playing music with people, itās one of my favourite things to do, and Mike really hates playing music with people. Itās little stuff, like weāll say, āletās try that again and see what it sounds like slowerā and Mike will be like, āno, I already know I donāt like itā. Whereas any other band context Iāve ever been in would be like āyeah, letās play it slower, letās play it EVEN slower, letās play it again faster, letās play it again in three, letās try this letās try thatā and Mike just sighs, like, āno, I wanna go.ā I think maybe thereās a little competitiveness, but now that American Football is way more successful than any of my bands ever will be, that competitiveness isnāt an issue anymore. We get along better than ever now that thereās just a clear winner, and itās not me.
In a Noisey documentary about Joan of Arc you say you think āmusic is supposed to be scaryā, which reminded me of trying to explain Butthole Surfers to my family and friends when I was super young. I think thatās the sentiment I was looking for but couldnāt find at the time.
Yeah! You know, they cut off the second part of that quote in the documentary. I remember tracing the line from KISS when I was two or four years old, and then Bauhaus when I was ten/12, and then Lungfish when I was 17. Thereās not many lines that people can draw from KISS to Bauhaus to Lungfish, but thatās the line I was able to draw. They were things that scared me at certain times that really drew me to them.
Yeah! You know, they cut off the second part of that quote in the documentary. I remember tracing the line from KISS when I was two or four years old, and then Bauhaus when I was ten/12, and then Lungfish when I was 17. Thereās not many lines that people can draw from KISS to Bauhaus to Lungfish, but thatās the line I was able to draw. They were things that scared me at certain times that really drew me to them.
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What was it about them that scared you?
Probably the same thing for all three bands, which was: I canāt imagine these peopleās lives.They all have an element of performance about them, I suppose.
It was like an evolution of my own ability to see and read what they were doing. They all seemed real to me. When I was two, KISS seemed like real superheroes; when I was ten, Bauhaus seemed like real vampires; and when I was 17, Lungfish were like real mystic holy men seashore guys.
Probably the same thing for all three bands, which was: I canāt imagine these peopleās lives.They all have an element of performance about them, I suppose.
It was like an evolution of my own ability to see and read what they were doing. They all seemed real to me. When I was two, KISS seemed like real superheroes; when I was ten, Bauhaus seemed like real vampires; and when I was 17, Lungfish were like real mystic holy men seashore guys.
I started reading your novel Let Go On And On And On recently. The concept of writing in the gaps of the life of someone like Laurie Bird ā who we know very little about beyond her roles ā is really interesting. What do you think it is about the tragic women that people find so fascinating?
Well, itās probably an inherently sexist premise in an inherently sexist culture. Itās very flattering to the male audience to be like āoh, only I can save her!ā At least thatās what all the dickhead men in my book had in common. They all thought they could save her.Itās bit like what you were saying about not being able to picture what those musiciansā lives were like ā the mystery that comes between what you see and what they are.
Yeah! Thatās the basic premise of Let Go On And On And On. Itās one of the most creative things Iāve ever done in that I remember the moment of the genesis of the idea ā which directly contradicts what I tell my students all the time. I teach creative writing classes every third semester or so. Weāll read something and theyāll ask āhowād they think of that?ā and Iām like āno, no ā thatās layers and layers and years of looking at it again and againā. But Let Go On And On And On really was one moment, one joke.
Well, itās probably an inherently sexist premise in an inherently sexist culture. Itās very flattering to the male audience to be like āoh, only I can save her!ā At least thatās what all the dickhead men in my book had in common. They all thought they could save her.Itās bit like what you were saying about not being able to picture what those musiciansā lives were like ā the mystery that comes between what you see and what they are.
Yeah! Thatās the basic premise of Let Go On And On And On. Itās one of the most creative things Iāve ever done in that I remember the moment of the genesis of the idea ā which directly contradicts what I tell my students all the time. I teach creative writing classes every third semester or so. Weāll read something and theyāll ask āhowād they think of that?ā and Iām like āno, no ā thatās layers and layers and years of looking at it again and againā. But Let Go On And On And On really was one moment, one joke.
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Talk me through it.
I used to work at an underground film video rental store and we were watching Two-Lane Blacktop for the hundredth time, and my friend was like āman, whatever happened to Laurie Bird?ā And I said, āyou know, she ends up marrying Warren Oates and he loses her to Harry Dean Stanton in a cock fightā ā just making a joke that that her roles were her real life. Then I Googled her and her Wikipedia page was like three sentences. She was in these three movies, she dated Art Garfunkel, she killed herself. I was like, 'OK, I guess Iāll write the biography from everything thatās known about her,' which is just her roles. It was very much that idea: collapsing the actress from the person.
I used to work at an underground film video rental store and we were watching Two-Lane Blacktop for the hundredth time, and my friend was like āman, whatever happened to Laurie Bird?ā And I said, āyou know, she ends up marrying Warren Oates and he loses her to Harry Dean Stanton in a cock fightā ā just making a joke that that her roles were her real life. Then I Googled her and her Wikipedia page was like three sentences. She was in these three movies, she dated Art Garfunkel, she killed herself. I was like, 'OK, I guess Iāll write the biography from everything thatās known about her,' which is just her roles. It was very much that idea: collapsing the actress from the person.
If all you know about somebody is their films, or their art, that leaves a lot of space to project yourself onto them. Because you express yourself in such a specific way, do you get people projecting onto you a lot?
People definitely think they know me from stuff I make. And, to a degree, they do. I used to be very protective of that idea of āyou canāt think you know me from what I say in this one songā, but the body of work as a whole definitely creates a constellation ā and there is a thing in the middle of it, which is me.And how are you doing?
I started running a few years ago. I started seeing a therapist. I donāt know which is which in terms of how much more at ease I feel in the world, but Iām a very different man than I was three or four years ago.
People definitely think they know me from stuff I make. And, to a degree, they do. I used to be very protective of that idea of āyou canāt think you know me from what I say in this one songā, but the body of work as a whole definitely creates a constellation ā and there is a thing in the middle of it, which is me.And how are you doing?
I started running a few years ago. I started seeing a therapist. I donāt know which is which in terms of how much more at ease I feel in the world, but Iām a very different man than I was three or four years ago.
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Therapy is weird. I started going earlier this year and it does change you very slowly over time in ways you donāt notice until you have to deal with certain situations.
This is maybe like the ninth therapist of my life. I first started seeing a therapist when I was 13, but none of them ever stuck. Iād always make it four months with someone and be like āah, this is stupid.ā But Iāve been seeing this guy for four or five years, and now I think anybody who doesnāt see a therapist is insane. I also think anyone who doesnāt run every morning is insane. Itās like, because of these two things, now I know myself, and I understand how my actions affect other people. Instead of just being stoned and confused all the time. Now Iām stoned and confused and I know myself.
This is maybe like the ninth therapist of my life. I first started seeing a therapist when I was 13, but none of them ever stuck. Iād always make it four months with someone and be like āah, this is stupid.ā But Iāve been seeing this guy for four or five years, and now I think anybody who doesnāt see a therapist is insane. I also think anyone who doesnāt run every morning is insane. Itās like, because of these two things, now I know myself, and I understand how my actions affect other people. Instead of just being stoned and confused all the time. Now Iām stoned and confused and I know myself.
The author page of Let Go On And On And On says āTim / Chicago / Libra / Joan of Arc. Is that a joke or are you bang into astrology?
I forgot thatās my author bio. Sure ā I go through phases of living according to it or not.Normally men are quite resistant to it even being a thing.
Astrology would be as pedestrian as my esoteric and occult interests go. My life is guided by intense meditation rituals and mantras. Every day, half a dozen times. I have rituals that couldnāt really be traced back to the tangible material world in their effectiveness.Have you read that book David Lynch wrote about transcendental meditation?
Oh yeah! Thatās a good one. Me and my brother went to a David Lynch weekend at the Maharishi Institute ten or 12 years ago, it was cool.
I forgot thatās my author bio. Sure ā I go through phases of living according to it or not.Normally men are quite resistant to it even being a thing.
Astrology would be as pedestrian as my esoteric and occult interests go. My life is guided by intense meditation rituals and mantras. Every day, half a dozen times. I have rituals that couldnāt really be traced back to the tangible material world in their effectiveness.Have you read that book David Lynch wrote about transcendental meditation?
Oh yeah! Thatās a good one. Me and my brother went to a David Lynch weekend at the Maharishi Institute ten or 12 years ago, it was cool.
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He does that thing, actually, where heāll think of a colour or an image and create around that. Apparently when he directs people heāll say like, ādo it again but make it more blueā.
Yeah. Collaborating with me isnāt for everyone, you know? And it shouldnāt be. But the Joan of Arc people, we have our own secret language between us.Do you have a secret language with everyone you collaborate with?
Nope [laughs], but with Joan of Arc I sure do. It would be very easy for us to say to each other ādo it again but make it more blueā. That wouldnāt be the way weād say it, but we definitely know what we mean when we tell each other āletās try that and stripe itā. Which goes back to when you asked about me and Mike getting along ā heād never in a million years have any patience for that. Heād be like āOK, are we playing it in 7? Are we playing it at this tempo? Is this the harmony?ā He wants clear-cut answers. Whereas Joan of Arc is like "Letās stripe it and try the second stripe backwardsā, and we all know what that means, but even if we donāt the margin of error in which we each understand it creates a new thing.So you teach creative writing, you write books, your lyrics often read like prose: what are some of the writers that have stuck with you the longest?
When I was a kid I would read Huck Finn over and over and over. Like I would get to the last page and not even stand up and stretch. Iād get to the last page and flip back to the beginning and keep reading it on a loop.
Yeah. Collaborating with me isnāt for everyone, you know? And it shouldnāt be. But the Joan of Arc people, we have our own secret language between us.Do you have a secret language with everyone you collaborate with?
Nope [laughs], but with Joan of Arc I sure do. It would be very easy for us to say to each other ādo it again but make it more blueā. That wouldnāt be the way weād say it, but we definitely know what we mean when we tell each other āletās try that and stripe itā. Which goes back to when you asked about me and Mike getting along ā heād never in a million years have any patience for that. Heād be like āOK, are we playing it in 7? Are we playing it at this tempo? Is this the harmony?ā He wants clear-cut answers. Whereas Joan of Arc is like "Letās stripe it and try the second stripe backwardsā, and we all know what that means, but even if we donāt the margin of error in which we each understand it creates a new thing.So you teach creative writing, you write books, your lyrics often read like prose: what are some of the writers that have stuck with you the longest?
When I was a kid I would read Huck Finn over and over and over. Like I would get to the last page and not even stand up and stretch. Iād get to the last page and flip back to the beginning and keep reading it on a loop.
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Is that because you liked the way it was written rather than wanting to read the same story?
It must have been, right? Because I knew the story. Obviously time passed a lot different in the 70s and early 80s than it does now, so reading was a very pleasurable thing for me. I first read it nine or ten years ago but Roberto Bolanoās The Savage Detectives was the first book I ever read in that way since Huck Finn. It was amazing. It really just felt like no other book had ever tuned me back into that eight-year-old who read Huck Finn on a loop.
It must have been, right? Because I knew the story. Obviously time passed a lot different in the 70s and early 80s than it does now, so reading was a very pleasurable thing for me. I first read it nine or ten years ago but Roberto Bolanoās The Savage Detectives was the first book I ever read in that way since Huck Finn. It was amazing. It really just felt like no other book had ever tuned me back into that eight-year-old who read Huck Finn on a loop.
Before we go, Iād like to talk about the video for āIssuesā, and how you are very naked in it.
The funny thing about that video is 36 hours before it came out there was not the little box covering my genitalia.Did someone politely ask you to censor it?
MY MOM. I had to call her and be like, āalright, so, you should know thereās this video coming out in a couple of days and Iām dancing naked in itā. And she was like āoohhhh-kayyyyā¦. please donāt do thisā. So we added an image covering my genitalia, but the original idea was just me dancing completely naked. It was a very direct statement aimed at a very specific person, probably more than anything Iāve ever made.What happened to the original cut?
The people at the record label have the version without the square. Thereās a couple of young women who work at the label who, during the once or twice a year I see them, love to throw it out as a little threat. Every time thereās the slightest thing that I disagree with theyāre like āyou know, we can leak that at any time!ā The video was shot with the guy that Iāve worked with constantly for 20 years. I was comfortable enough dancing naked in front of him, but one of his assistants came in while we were editing and he was like, āhuh, you never really see aā¦ normal sized dickā. He really had to concentrate on it, like, āwhatās the police word? Normalā [laughs]. Thanks pal!Word. Shoutout normal dicks!
The funny thing about that video is 36 hours before it came out there was not the little box covering my genitalia.Did someone politely ask you to censor it?
MY MOM. I had to call her and be like, āalright, so, you should know thereās this video coming out in a couple of days and Iām dancing naked in itā. And she was like āoohhhh-kayyyyā¦. please donāt do thisā. So we added an image covering my genitalia, but the original idea was just me dancing completely naked. It was a very direct statement aimed at a very specific person, probably more than anything Iāve ever made.What happened to the original cut?
The people at the record label have the version without the square. Thereās a couple of young women who work at the label who, during the once or twice a year I see them, love to throw it out as a little threat. Every time thereās the slightest thing that I disagree with theyāre like āyou know, we can leak that at any time!ā The video was shot with the guy that Iāve worked with constantly for 20 years. I was comfortable enough dancing naked in front of him, but one of his assistants came in while we were editing and he was like, āhuh, you never really see aā¦ normal sized dickā. He really had to concentrate on it, like, āwhatās the police word? Normalā [laughs]. Thanks pal!Word. Shoutout normal dicks!
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