In the latest episode of The Pizza Show, host and Best Pizza owner Frank Pinello takes a trip to the City of Angels to explore LA's exploding pizza scene and the ins and outs of California-style pizza.From the iconic smoked salmon pizza at Spago to the global reach of California Pizza Kitchen's BBQ chicken pizza, Frank explores California-style pizza and whether Los Angeles' pizza scene can hold its own against New York and Chicago. And to round off his trip, Frank visits some of the city's many New York-style pizzerias to see if they can hold a candle to actual New York pizza.
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MUNCHIES sat down with Frank once he got back to Brooklyn to find out what the pizzaiolo learned in La-La Land.
MUNCHIES: Before filming this latest episode of "The Pizza Show," what was your view of LA's pizza scene and California pizza in general?Frank Pinello: To me, it was really just a lot of weird toppings. But when we went out there for the show, it was pretty encouraging to see a bunch of independent slice places that had opened—Pizzanista was probably one of the first ones and they have a really cool niche in the art district with skaters. After going to Pizzanista and looking around a bit, I opened Prime Pizza [in 2014] and got to spend some time out there. Since then, some new places have opened up, so it seems like whoever is out there from New York and is looking for pizza has some options.Do you think this new wave of pizza spots is opening up because of New Yorkers moving to LA?
Yeah, I think so. When you start to see these by-the-slice, independent places opening, it seems to me that people wanted to bring a piece of New York over to LA. There are a lot of New Yorkers over there and you're always hearing them talk about how they can't get a good sandwich or slice, so I think we're seeing a response to that.
Yeah, I think so. When you start to see these by-the-slice, independent places opening, it seems to me that people wanted to bring a piece of New York over to LA. There are a lot of New Yorkers over there and you're always hearing them talk about how they can't get a good sandwich or slice, so I think we're seeing a response to that.
What was your impression of the New York-style pizza in LA?
The by-the-slice pizza that I tried there was pretty good. I'm not going to say that it was great, but it was pretty good. It makes me happy to see that there's a space for the slice culture we have in New York over there. Everybody's driving over there—it's a real car culture—but when you think about grabbing a slice, you think about walking to your corner slice spot, so the fact that they even exist out there makes me happy. As long as you have a concentration of New Yorkers in one place, you're going to have a demand for pizza [by the slice]. That's just how it goes.
The by-the-slice pizza that I tried there was pretty good. I'm not going to say that it was great, but it was pretty good. It makes me happy to see that there's a space for the slice culture we have in New York over there. Everybody's driving over there—it's a real car culture—but when you think about grabbing a slice, you think about walking to your corner slice spot, so the fact that they even exist out there makes me happy. As long as you have a concentration of New Yorkers in one place, you're going to have a demand for pizza [by the slice]. That's just how it goes.
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What do you now think of California-style pizza as being?When I think of California pizza, there aren't necessarily rules. When you open up in California, you're not held to, I don't want to say standards—because there are high standards—but there's not the same rules. In New York, you expect to see a round pie, a square pie, maybe a white pie, a grandma pie, but out there, there's more freedom. When you think about California, you think about great produce, and pretty much across the board they utilize that on their pizza.
A lot of people over the years have said that the reason LA doesn't have good pizza is the water. I'm pretty skeptical of that being the sole deciding factor, but I wanted to get your take on that, especially because of your involvement with Prime.
I think we have great water [in New York], which makes it easier to make great pizza, but that doesn't mean you can't make great pizza everywhere. Maybe every pizza place won't be great by default because they don't have our water, but if you're a good baker and you know how to use yeast and make adjustments, then there's no reason you can't make great pizza. It's kind of bullshit, but at the same time, in New York so many places are good just because our water reacts really well to the gluten in the dough. You don't need our water to make great pizza.What was it like getting to talk to Wolfgang Puck and pick his brain about his smoked salmon pizza? Not only is he a legend, but that pizza really changed things for Cali pizza.
That was a dream come true. Not only did Wolfgang Puck change the landscape of dining in America, but Spago changed Beverly Hills and all of Los Angeles. Just the pizza that he made changed the game as well and ended up being copied by the California Pizza Kitchen guys. He wasn't even trying to do that, it was just a coincidence. I think the story goes that he used to put that smoked salmon on a brioche and was out of the brioche one day, so he put it on a pizza. When you have a chef that really changes the pizza game and did it totally by mistake, you can tell how talented the guy is.
I think we have great water [in New York], which makes it easier to make great pizza, but that doesn't mean you can't make great pizza everywhere. Maybe every pizza place won't be great by default because they don't have our water, but if you're a good baker and you know how to use yeast and make adjustments, then there's no reason you can't make great pizza. It's kind of bullshit, but at the same time, in New York so many places are good just because our water reacts really well to the gluten in the dough. You don't need our water to make great pizza.What was it like getting to talk to Wolfgang Puck and pick his brain about his smoked salmon pizza? Not only is he a legend, but that pizza really changed things for Cali pizza.
That was a dream come true. Not only did Wolfgang Puck change the landscape of dining in America, but Spago changed Beverly Hills and all of Los Angeles. Just the pizza that he made changed the game as well and ended up being copied by the California Pizza Kitchen guys. He wasn't even trying to do that, it was just a coincidence. I think the story goes that he used to put that smoked salmon on a brioche and was out of the brioche one day, so he put it on a pizza. When you have a chef that really changes the pizza game and did it totally by mistake, you can tell how talented the guy is.
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What do you think pizza guys like you can learn from the way Wolfgang Puck approaches pizza? You seemed pretty impressed by his attention to detail in the episode.
He's a world class chef. I think the way that Wolfgang took his attention to detail and training and came up with a pizza that really makes sense—it has balance to it, it tastes great, the toppings weren't too much, even the crust was really great and unique for a fancy restaurant like that. A lot of people can learn from him that a really good background in cooking also goes a long way in pizza.At one point in the episode, you're talking to the CPK guys and you make the point that most neighborhood slice spots here in the city sell a BBQ chicken slice. I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at the influence of CPK outside of California. Can you talk a bit about the influence of CPK?
We all ate California Pizza Kitchen growing up, so people may want to knock it now and say CPK is not the best pizza in the world, but the reality is that we all went there as kids and enjoyed it. They had a huge influence because they took something that was very traditional and that we all thought we knew and totally flipped it on its head. I really think they opened up the space for places like Roberta's and Paulie Gee's to put ingredients you would never see in Italy on a pizza. California Pizza Kitchen acted as a gateway for a lot of places.
He's a world class chef. I think the way that Wolfgang took his attention to detail and training and came up with a pizza that really makes sense—it has balance to it, it tastes great, the toppings weren't too much, even the crust was really great and unique for a fancy restaurant like that. A lot of people can learn from him that a really good background in cooking also goes a long way in pizza.At one point in the episode, you're talking to the CPK guys and you make the point that most neighborhood slice spots here in the city sell a BBQ chicken slice. I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at the influence of CPK outside of California. Can you talk a bit about the influence of CPK?
We all ate California Pizza Kitchen growing up, so people may want to knock it now and say CPK is not the best pizza in the world, but the reality is that we all went there as kids and enjoyed it. They had a huge influence because they took something that was very traditional and that we all thought we knew and totally flipped it on its head. I really think they opened up the space for places like Roberta's and Paulie Gee's to put ingredients you would never see in Italy on a pizza. California Pizza Kitchen acted as a gateway for a lot of places.
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Is your new experience with LA and Cali pizza going to change the way you do things at Best Pizza?
At Best Pizza, we really try and stay inside of a box and just make traditional New York slices. I don't see myself going down the route of California pizza, but one thing that definitely influenced me in general was focusing on really great produce. There's a big focus on that there, and in New York, it's getting really easy to do that. Great ingredients shouldn't just be limited to fine dining restaurants. A veggie slice should have great veggies on it.
Do you think there will ever come a time where California-style pizza is going to become more popular in New York— aside from corner slice joints putting ranch or bbq on pizza?
No. I don't think so. There's no way that a BBQ chicken slice would become more popular than a regular slice here, only because the flavors of a New York slice are tried and true. You have the acidity from the tomatoes, the creaminess from the mozzarella, the savoriness from the crust, it's really the perfect balance for a pizza and it's worked for so many years and years. I still think traditional is the best.Thanks for speaking with us, Frank.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.
At Best Pizza, we really try and stay inside of a box and just make traditional New York slices. I don't see myself going down the route of California pizza, but one thing that definitely influenced me in general was focusing on really great produce. There's a big focus on that there, and in New York, it's getting really easy to do that. Great ingredients shouldn't just be limited to fine dining restaurants. A veggie slice should have great veggies on it.
WATCH: The Pizza Show: Los Angeles
Do you think there will ever come a time where California-style pizza is going to become more popular in New York— aside from corner slice joints putting ranch or bbq on pizza?
No. I don't think so. There's no way that a BBQ chicken slice would become more popular than a regular slice here, only because the flavors of a New York slice are tried and true. You have the acidity from the tomatoes, the creaminess from the mozzarella, the savoriness from the crust, it's really the perfect balance for a pizza and it's worked for so many years and years. I still think traditional is the best.Thanks for speaking with us, Frank.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.